But when you think about that notion of doing things, enabling people to do things without your permission, it causes you to make some different decisions in your protocol design that greatly reduce the amount of coupling, make the context a lot more explicit, and make your service more generally useful and provide more residual value so your service can be reused in new use cases that you haven't considered when you wrote it. The business couldn't assimilate change as rapidly as we were creating it. MICHAEL: Yeah, and in fact a lot of the sharp edges in Git are where it allows power users to sort of do actions that have no undo. Michael Nygard. In this episode of the O’Reilly Programming Podcast, I talk with Michael Nygard, a software architect at Cognitect.He has spoken about “architecture without an end state” at numerous O’Reilly Software Architecture … … Michael Nygard - Cognicast Episode 106 — Cognitect Blog Huffduffed by erichaberkorn on September 6th, 2016 In this episode, we talk to Michael Nygard about microservices and other But this misses the real benefit around maneuverability, argued Michael Nygard, an enterprise architect with Cognitect. I've been to a number of places where they have these very large monolithic code bases, some of them ten years old or more. Whereas text messages are asynchronous, and we seem to have, for reasons that maybe aren't super helpful in this conversation, but still we seem to have a strong preference for that asynchronous mode of communication in that realm, even though you're holding the device that is perfectly capable of communicating with the same person synchronously. If the conveyor belt is bolted to the floor, then I'm not going to be able to run it past the new paint shed or whatever it is that needs to happen. MICHAEL: Well, the next piece that we really haven't talked about is a question of sort of durability of the software and whether we should think of it as an asset or a liability. One, it's a handshake to initiate a conversation just like a TCP three-phase handshake. Yeah, and to be clear, I was paraphrasing Tim. It's the abnormal state. I think this is one of the motivators for containers, by the way. MICHAEL: Yeah, exactly. Visibility into the consequences of the action you're about to take is even better. MICHAEL: No, I think I've said quite a bit, and I'm going to leave it there and save the rest for the next cast. As with anything, and as we always say at the end of every show, we do welcome feedback, either via Twitter @Cognitect or you can email us at podcast@cognitect.com. An example is Agile software development. That's actually something that, on rereading the series, I really started to see that theme, I think, which is one that I like a lot, the idea of, well, step back and take a look at the big picture. Well, I think everybody can agree that painful deployments are worse than easy deployments. They created problems for other people. Now, obviously in a company you need to have a trust boundary somewhere. But I want to make sure that we kind of come back to the middle road where we were talking about this very interesting story that you've been telling around this stuff because I know we didn't get a chance to or we haven't yet completed that arch. Because deploying software looks like a failure in the service that's being deployed, and so everything is just going to continue functioning happily as you deploy your software. Some of us have been saying development is production. CRAIG: Yeah, I think that's right. I don't know. You can subscribe to The Cognicast, listen to past episodes, and view cover art, show notes, and episode transcripts at our home on the Web, cognitect.com/cognicast. Craig Andera - Cognicast Episode 139. But with text I can multiplex it, right? Maneuverable architecture - Michael Nygard (Cognitect, Inc.) Get The Microservices Video Collection now with O’Reilly online learning. Topics You're going to call someone. The software is only done when it's deleted, so I'd rather see companies build things in smaller pieces that they can throw away more rapidly and rewrite when needed instead of trying to face down a three-year, multimillion-dollar rewrite of something because, at the bottom, it's still a ten year old implementation of the Java data objects beta standard that got customized for this company. At that point we're starting to make even the language of the system be explicit and discoverable and usable without permission. MICHAEL: I see where you're going, and I agree on the value of having a global namespace. Michael Nygard, VP, Customer Solutions, Cognitect Inc. DevOps is part of a larger shift in organizational structure, system architecture, infrastructure, and process design. MICHAEL: Yeah, and he wasn't even deliberately harming it. MICHAEL: I think the one piece that we haven't even touched on yet is the one about using high leverage tools or sharp tools in our local parlance. You can send feedback about the show to podcast@cognitect.com, or leave a comment here on the blog. You have to have a strategy. MICHAEL: I think that analogy is actually pretty rich source because we can think about other aspects of making that phone call. It's just an unsolvable problem. You can see there's a link to the transcript. MICHAEL: Bulkheads are something that you can do pretty easily in a virtualized environment as well. Cognitect Support; Query; Aggregation Michael Nygard January 08, 2016 18:15. It just adds something to it. Otherwise you're really not separated at all. Anyway, we should move on. We default to thinking about things in terms of synchronous request response loops, but there are a great many business processes that can be made into a series of messages and queues. read Design and Deploy Production-Ready Software This episode is sponsored by Pivotal. But, for example, imagine that every message you pass on the wire includes a URN to someplace where I can go and look at that message format. You alluded to kind of one of the approaches, one of the techniques, one of the tools that you can use to get some of this capability, in your book The Circuit Breaker Pattern, which I have used very successfully via Netflix's Hystrix library. Certainly, I think we're going to want to have you back, regardless, to talk about the other things that are coming up. The whole approach to microservices says no. Cognitect. Block user. It was a fascinating sidebar. In his upcoming talk at this year's DevOps Enterprise Summit ("Tempo, Maneuverability, and Initiative"), Nygard, VP of Customer Solutions at Cognitect, Inc. , will draw several useful parallels … If I have a full URL, then I can always resolve that to something. And it's all built on top of an in-memory, transactional graph database. Yup. You can also subscribe to the podcast using our podcast feed. MICHAEL: To me, by the way, this answers one of the common questions about microservices from people coming from traditional environments. CRAIG: Sure. So before we jump into the reason why we're having you on today, although obviously that's the discussion, let's go ahead with the initial question, which is about art. Design and Deploy Production-Ready Software and contributor to Beautiful Architecture (O'Reilly … Then the other is kind of giving the team tools so that they know what they're doing and they don't create problems for others as a process. We are pleased to announce today that Cognitect and Nubank will be sponsoring dozens of contributors to the Clojure ecosystem with regular monthly support.. Open source is a critical part of the economy but it is an ecosystem still without a viable economic model. MICHAEL: This can be routine, or it can be exciting. I can't actually remember off the top of my head. This talk reminds us, in the industry from which we borrowed the term, "coupling" was not … I know you and I both got to hear about spec a little bit before that came to light, and sometimes it's hard, right? Yeah, legacy systems in Java, really, they can't make changes any more. We're always happy to hear from you. Ashley Williams, core Rust team @RustLang; See all 54 QCon Plus speakers . Ragnar Svensson King. CRAIG: That's not a bad idea. Our guest today was Michael Nygard, on Twitter @MTNygard. If your assumptions are different and your premises are different then, yeah, the conclusions will look insane. What is this idea or set of ideas you're trying to get across? Michael works for Cognitect Inc., the company behind Clojure, ClojureScript, Pedestal, and Datomic. And so that's going to let you, if you want to subscribe to just the transcripts or, in addition, subscribe to the transcripts. You need to be able to create customers in that database. … Michael T. Nygard! Mike chose "The Bomb" by Bittersweet to start the show and "Baba Yaga" by Mussorgsky to end the show. But I wanted to say that I think I had been referring to it when I was talking to you and said, "Oh, you should come on the show and talk about microservices since you're writing a microservices blog series." We mentioned them last time on the show. You're not producing the desired effect directly as you would be with constructing a home, if that makes any sense. Even though you've written this stuff, I really think it's great to get together and have a conversation about it. So you can say, "I'm going to make the synchronous call. We went both directions today, didn't we? I'm thinking to myself, as I hear you say this, that that might be a fairly important aspect of easily implementing the type of thing you're talking about because it lets you have a unique identifier for a piece of data that you can attach semantics to and now have to go and look up. Yeah, obviously it's something that we're capable of thinking about as a human level process. People are loving it, and it's fun. But that's not true. Block or report user Block or report mtnygard. It worked great. But in this one particular division the procurement manager got called on the carpet for a work stoppage that had lasted six hours or something like that. The key with bulkheads is that you have to separate things all the way down to the database. CRAIG: Yeah, there we go. October 17, 2013 Tweet Share More Decks by Michael Nygard. We're hitting its peak, perhaps. It was Richard Wagner's The Ring Cycle, which was fabulous. I'm your host, Craig Andera. Oh, that button turns everything into," I don't know, "Klingon. You're not talking about security implementation like authentication or authorization. But I've found that, by and large, when I'm listening to CDs and I'm trying to figure out what to add to my library to listen to again later, I almost always skip the live ones. I think if you kind of look at the way that TDD or whatever you want to call it, say what you will about any particular manifestation of that philosophy, I do think most people would agree that having developers write tests, think about testing is useful. That's August 5th, so talk proposals need to be in by August 5th, 2016. Design and Deploy Production-Ready Software." CRAIG: Where you're saying there's a context that flows down through the parts of this, I guess, document in the case of XML. I guess I did, but he was talking about a naïve application in a narrow sense. MICHAEL: Yeah. CRAIG: Mm-hmm. Continue to carry us through the story arch of your series. : Design and Deploy Production-Ready Software by Michael T. Nygard The Circuit Breaker Pattern Designing Software to Get Past 1.0 07:15 - Upfront Architecture Agile Software Development What does … They do. Well, there went the entire just in time system because one guy acted in his own self interest and harmed the organization. You can find that by going to the podcast home on the Web. It was a tire fire, and we had to roll everything back. CRAIG: Every last person you meet is like that, and still – and still you wind up with a direction that is, to put it generously, suboptimal. In their case they're using Avro, which can actually load definitions dynamically and unpack the message according to that definition, so it's not just a documentation thing. There's an outfit out there called Confluent.io that did a really cool thing. We were talking about live music earlier. But it doesn't act very much like an asset. CRAIG: Cool. In fact, most of the books on SOA are about SOA governance. Michael Nygard mtnygard. You need to be able to move the pieces around so you can make different things because you're building a thing that actually, when run, produces the desired effect. CRAIG: Right. But I like the fact that you've carried it even further and that idea that you need to be as cognizant. In this episode of the O’Reilly Programming Podcast, I talk with Michael Nygard, a software architect at Cognitect. One of the key things about spec or one of the things that kind of jumps out at you when you look at it is the use of namespace keywords. This talk reminds us, in the industry from which we borrowed the term, "coupling" was not a dirty word. Right. I wonder what you would like to tell us today. You have to have a plan, even if you also need to have flexibility. The show is available on iTunes! Author of Release It! I haven't articulated all this up, which is why Part 11 isn't up yet, but I think of these as sort of safety factors. [Music: "Thumbs Up (for Rock N' Roll)" by Kill the Noise and Feed Me]. CRAIG: Yeah. @mtnygard. Definitely one of the people I always enjoy talking to. We like to work with you on the hard stuff. Well, anyway, so that's awesome advice, but we are wrapping it up here, so I can't forget and I cannot do this enough, but thank you so much for coming on today. I am not a fan, for example, of passing around a raw ID, just a number or an alpha numeric string. You have even a higher level of negotiation to go through. Cognitect!! One of the things that they do is they have a Kafka topic, which is their registry of message definitions. Episodes? MICHAEL: I see what you mean. But another is that I think there's a sense in which what we do is fundamentally different from building a building in that I think it's maybe more like building a factory. He decided it would never happen again, so he ordered something like four months' worth of parts. I definitely can. MICHAEL: The collected advice of The Cognicast. Before I dragged you off into talking about factories making factories to make factories, bring me back to the arch. You're talking about, I think, using URLs as keys. Follow. I'm not likely to address it in this series. CRAIG: A really fascinating series, and it's interesting. This has been true for some time. Living with systems in production taught Michael about the importance of operations and writing production-ready software. Michael T. Nygard Cognitect mtnygard@cognitect.com @mtnygard Thursday, October 17, 13. I want to mention a couple things about EuroClojure. @mtnygard. CRAIG: Right. Really, you definitely are one of my favorite people to have conversations with. VP, enterprise architecture, Sabre . There's one other aspect of making a phone call, which you can think about placing the call and the ringing on the other end. I am pleased to once again welcome to the show Michael Nygard. MICHAEL: But if we sort of drill down under the hypothetical, maybe we had a big system outage. The problem is that the policy number doesn't give me any context about where it came from or where I can go to exchange it for more info. What I'm really trying to do is take a number of different threads of conversation, of change in the industry, and weave them together to synthesize them and show how they support each other and how they should inform what we do in probably the coming decade. Michael T. Nygard! Clojure for a desktop GUI application. Cognitect news, musings and more. It's a really bizarre concept for people that haven't run into it before. Maybe it's just that you have a separate operations group from your dev group, and so every problem from dev becomes an operations problem. Please continue. Michael Nygard: @mtnygard | Wide Awake Developers (Mike’s Blog) | The Cognitect Blog | Release It! CRAIG: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's hard to believe. I have to make assumptions about where it came from. The development pipeline and tooling is the production system by which we do our job. I have the amusing experience of explaining this, explaining the chaos monkey, that thing that Netflix has that you mention that runs around and actually knocks over various bits of their infrastructure to some people who hadn't been exposed to it. And let me find ways to either invert these dependencies, break them, turn a hard dependency into a soft dependency," meaning it doesn't cause a failure in the consumer if the supplier fails, "or factor dependencies out so two teams are independent from each other but each have a dependency on something new that we can put under a high SLA.". To put a trigger warning on this episode is sponsored by Pivotal terrible... 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